# haunting with relays



## guitarist155 (Sep 25, 2007)

relays are a staple for any haunter and are the answer to alot of how do i ---- questions. a relay will allow you to switch high voltage like 120v using low voltage like 12v or 24v so that if you have a controller that outputs 12/24v you can use it to send a device 120v, you can also use high voltage to switch low voltage to allow you to switch on a battery powered device or a small circuit using 120v. so you could connect a relay to a fog machine controller in place of the fog button and when you send power 12/24/120v to the relay it will be just like pressing the fog button. so here is a run down of the basics of a relay.

*how it works: Relay - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia*
terms:
NO= normally open = the circuit is not complete until power is applied to the coil.
NC= normally closed = the circuit is complete *until* power is applied to the coil.
coil voltage = the voltage needed to activate the relay.

protective diode. if you do not have a relay with a diode built in you need to attach one your self, a diode will prevent a voltage spike from damaging your controller when you stop applying current to the coil. please see link for more information: *Diodes
*
there are may different coil voltages the most common are: 12v 24v 120v

there are also many types of contacts/poles, you can have spst single pole single throw. which means the relay is a basic switch, when current is applied it turns on the switch (if NO ) or turns off the switch ( if NC ) 

spdt single pole dual throw. this relay has to has both NC and NO positions meaning when power is not applied the main contact is connected to the NC pole and when power is applied it switches to the NO contact.

dpdt dual pole dual throw. this is the same as spdt but has 2 sets of contacts like two relays with one coil, when power is applied both switch from NO to the NC so that you can trip 2 hings at one time.

4pdt four pole dual throw. this is the same as spdt and dpdt but with 4 sets of contacts. 









here is the relay i use, it is an idec 4pdt 120v coil with diode. when power is applied to the coil whatever is connected to the 2nd pin from left will go to the 3rd pin from the left and disconnect from the last pin.

*please note. information in this thread will differ depending on which relay brand and type you have, voltage ratings and pin placement should be used only as an example.
when working with electricity please be be careful and always unplug the circuit you are working on before touching or moving any part of the circuit. this circuit can be very dangerous, attempt at own risk.*


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## guitarist155 (Sep 25, 2007)

for most relays you can buy a socket as an option, it is not required but will make connections easier and in the event that you need to replace the relay all you have to do is pop the relay out and put in a new one.


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## guitarist155 (Sep 25, 2007)

the power cord i am using is a 3 conductor and has a ground, the ground can't connect to the relay as it only has a positive and negative however if you use a metal enclosure you will need to attach the ground to the metal enclosure. 










the first two pins the wires are coming off of are the coil pins, this is where you apply power to the coil to activate the relay. please note: the relay should specify which pin is positive and which is negative, this is very important to follow if you have a polarized relay or a relay with a protective diode.
you will notice the next rows of pins are in rows of 4 this is where the 4pdt comes in this is basically four relays in one with a single coil that operate at the same time.

the pins the orange wire is pointing to are the input pins, these are the pins that are sent to ether the NO or NC poles.


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## guitarist155 (Sep 25, 2007)

these pins are the normally open pins, these will connect to the input pins when power is applied to the coil.









these are the normally closed pins, these are connected to the input pins *until* power is applied to the coil.


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## guitarist155 (Sep 25, 2007)

here is one end of a low voltage cat 5 pair connected to the normally open poles. the other end would be connected in place of a switch to activate a low power device when power is applied to the coil.

this is the setup used for a fog machine remote. as most fog machines carry 120v over the remote switch you would need to have a relay rated for at least 120v across the poles.
you would also need to use wiring rated for 120v and NEVER CAT 5 when using 120v. you must also be very careful and not work on this circuit while the fog machine is plugged in.


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## guitarist155 (Sep 25, 2007)

more to come soon.


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## Kammo (Aug 2, 2008)

WOW! thats great!
JUST WHAT I NEEDED!!!!
where do you get those relays? and the sockets?
Got a link or maybe radio shack?
I have been looking for somthing on how to hook up my fog machine switches to my control box that is 120v...
Thanks alot!


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## guitarist155 (Sep 25, 2007)

the relays i have can be found here RY4S-UL-AC120 - IDEC RELAY, 4PDT, 5A, 120VAC, IND LIGHT, and sockets here SY4S-05 - IDEC SOCKET DIN RAIL/SURFACE 14-BLADE FOR RY4S, RM2S, GT5Y they are somewhat pricey though 

you can also use one of these from radio shack RadioShack.com - Cables, Parts & Connectors: Component parts: Relays & transformers: 125VAC/10A DPDT Plug-In Relay and ether solder on the wires or just get some of these RadioShack.com - Cables, Parts & Connectors: Connectors & connectivity: Crimp connectors & terminals: Male/Female Insulated Quick-Disconnects (8-Pack) but i am unsure of the size connector you would need. if you go the route you could go to radio shack and just see which one fits.


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## Kammo (Aug 2, 2008)

PERFECT! I will go with the ones from Radio Shack, there is one right by my house. Thank you very very much!


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## bfjou812 (Jun 6, 2008)

guitarist155 said:


> relays are a staple for any haunter and are the answer to alot of how do i ---- questions. a relay will allow you to switch high voltage like 120v using low voltage like 12v or 24v so that if you have a controller that outputs 12/24v you can use it to send a device 120v, you can also use high voltage to switch low voltage to allow you to switch on a battery powered device or a small circuit using 120v. so you could connect a relay to a fog machine controller in place of the fog button and when you send power 12/24/120v to the relay it will be just like pressing the fog button. so here is a run down of the basics of a relay.
> 
> *how it works: Relay - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia*
> terms:
> ...




Hi guitarist155, I was reading your thread on the relays and found it very informative. I have a question concerning the type of diode that is used to go across the relay. I have some switching diodes , #1n914- Radio Shack p/n and was wondering if these would work. Thanks , bfjou812


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## guitarist155 (Sep 25, 2007)

according to radio shack part numbers the the 1n914 is also known as the 4148 which is actually the one specified in the wiki.

'' quote " Signal diodes (small current)
Signal diodes are used to process information (electrical signals) in circuits, so they are only required to pass small currents of up to 100mA.
General purpose signal diodes such as the 1N4148 are made from silicon and have a forward voltage drop of 0.7V.

Germanium diodes such as the OA90 have a lower forward voltage drop of 0.2V and this makes them suitable to use in radio circuits as detectors which extract the audio signal from the weak radio signal.

For general use, where the size of the forward voltage drop is less important, silicon diodes are better because they are less easily damaged by heat when soldering, they have a lower resistance when conducting, and they have very low leakage currents when a reverse voltage is applied.

Protection diode for a relay
Protection diodes for relays
Signal diodes are also used to protect transistors and ICs from the brief high voltage produced when a relay coil is switched off. The diagram shows how a protection diode is connected 'backwards' across the relay coil.

Current flowing through a relay coil creates a magnetic field which collapses suddenly when the current is switched off. The sudden collapse of the magnetic field induces a brief high voltage across the relay coil which is very likely to damage transistors and ICs. The protection diode allows the induced voltage to drive a brief current through the coil (and diode) so the magnetic field dies away quickly rather than instantly. This prevents the induced voltage becoming high enough to cause damage to transistors and ICs. "


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## Abunai (Jan 28, 2008)

Guitarist, 

I have some questions:

I have a few props that I operate with motion sensors, when triggered, they supply 120v AC to the prop (usually a solenoid valve.)

I would like to also trigger playback of an MP3 player at the same time. I have some MP3 players hacked that require a contact closure for less than 1 second to activate the playback. 

I have several 120v AC relays that I can hook up to the triggered supply from the motion detector and provide contact closure for the MP3 player. 

However, the MP3 players only need a closed contact for less than 1 second, and the motion sensor applies the 120v for a minimum of 5 seconds. A contact closure lasting that long will power the MP3 player off instead of initiating playback. 

How can I fabricate a "momentary relay" (kind of the opposite of a latching relay) that will close every time 120v is applied, but will open up again in less than a second, even if the 120v is still present on the coil?


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## bfjou812 (Jun 6, 2008)

Abunai said:


> Guitarist,
> 
> I have some questions:
> 
> ...


About the only way that I can think of is to use an interval timing relay that has an adjustable timing range. McMaster- Carr has them but kind of pricey. You might try using a limit switch that is actuated off of the prop when it is activated. You would have to have the switch mounted where the prop will hold it closed for 1 sec. and open it after that time. I did see something in McMaster-Carr about an adapter to make a non timed relay into a timed relay.Hope this helps.


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## Diabolik (Apr 10, 2006)

It has to be under a second ? This Altronix 6062 timer can go down to a second. I use these all the time and they are very dependable. 

Altronix 6062


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## guitarist155 (Sep 25, 2007)

i agree with the others, i don't really know how to do this without the use of some sort of timing circuit. 
i like the idea of a limit switch but not at the end of a movement but rather along the motion of travel so that when it passes the switch it will activate it for a short period of time, however it would probably press it again going the other way. 

i will have to think on this


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## partsman (Oct 18, 2007)

On my props that require specific times to keep them from retriggering I use Gra-Lab photographic timers, they can usually be found on ebay for under $10, they are digital, and can be programed for 10ths of seconds. In the case of the MP3 player, I would wire in an additional relay after the timer, and use it as a no-power contact only circuit to trigger not only the MP3 player, but also any other device that requires a contact only trigger or push button activation.I hope this helps. BTW guitarist155, your tutorial helped me figure out how to wire up my delay-on relays for this year's display, I just want to say thanks for putting this thread up, I never would have been able to set this up this year without it!


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## Abunai (Jan 28, 2008)

Diabolik said:


> It has to be under a second ? This Altronix 6062 timer can go down to a second. I use these all the time and they are very dependable.
> 
> Altronix 6062


I tested this last night, and the contact can be up to slightly more than a second. 

I did find some "Interval On" timer relays online, made by Airotronics, that look like they would work. The problem with that is I don't know where to buy them locally, and I don't have time to mail order them. 

Any other suggestions?


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## bfjou812 (Jun 6, 2008)

You might try Mcmaster - Carr, they usually have pretty fast shipping. Or try the limit switch idea and on the return stroke you could either speed it up so it travels faster than 1 sec or slow it down so it is between the on time and off time. I assume that if you hold the switch for 3 sec. thet it will not turn off or less than 1 sec. it will not restart or turn off.


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## Diabolik (Apr 10, 2006)

Abunai said:


> I tested this last night, and the contact can be up to slightly more than a second.
> 
> I did find some "Interval On" timer relays online, made by Airotronics, that sould like they would work. The problem with that is I don't know where to buy them locally, and I don't have time to mail order them.
> 
> Any other suggestions?


Look in your local yellow pages. See if you can find a distributor for security system parts in your area (not an installer a distributor) . Any alarm distributor will stock the altronix timers or something equivalent. It is a common part in that industry.


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## Diabolik (Apr 10, 2006)

We have one of these here in Pittsburgh. they will stock what you need. Try them, not sure how close they would be to you though ? 

AlarMax Distributors, Inc.

COLORADO SALES OFFICE_

Phone: (800) 237-0095
_ 
Fax: (970) 669-7327


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## DEADicated (Sep 22, 2008)

Most large industrial electical supply vendors will have what you need inhouse for most relays. In the Northeast try Ralph Pill Electric / Eagle Electric. If they don't have in the local store ask them to look it up in the next closest one.


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## Phil (Mar 21, 2008)

I have used DEI 528t timer relays for similar apps. They are designed for car security and adjustable from 1-90 seconds with 30 amp contact rating. You would need a 12 volt trigger. Haven't bought one in a while but I paid around $15 with shipping.


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## CaptnJackSparrow (Jul 5, 2007)

'ave ya thot o' using SSR's(solid-state relays) 'stead o' electro-magnetic relays? Yer relays do give couple more contact points fer multiple prop usage tho.. Very good 'walk-thru' 'mate!


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## guitarist155 (Sep 25, 2007)

I thought about it BUTTTTT i got a deal on these on ebay 72 relays with sockets for about $2.50 plus $28 shipping( heavy box ) so $1300 worth for $30


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## JohnS2111 (Oct 4, 2008)

I seem to remember reading (in my youth) an engineers mini-notebook by Forrest Mims that talked of a "one shot" circuit. If you look here (CircuitDB | 555 timer Mono stable (one shot) circuit) you'll see the circuit that I am talking about. You would need to change the value of the resistors on the 555 to get the output time to be less than a second, and if you search around a little on the internet, you'll find info and the formulas to determine what resistors to use. (You might also need a capacitor on the input side -- see the text on the web site)


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## JohnS2111 (Oct 4, 2008)

Abunai said:


> Guitarist,
> 
> I have some questions:
> 
> ...


I seem to remember reading (in my youth) an engineers mini-notebook by Forrest Mims that talked of a "one shot" circuit. If you look here (CircuitDB | 555 timer Mono stable (one shot) circuit) you'll see the circuit that I am talking about. You would need to change the value of the resistors on the 555 to get the output time to be less than a second, and if you search around a little on the internet, you'll find info and the formulas to determine what resistors to use. (You might also need a capacitor on the input side -- see the text on the web site)
Also since you are using 110v as a signal you need to use a relay on the input side of this circuit otherwise you will release the magic blue smoke and it will not work.


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## Abunai (Jan 28, 2008)

Thanks for your help everyone. And thanks for the tutorial Guitarist. 

I found exactly what I needed: the Idec RTE-P11 electronic timer. 

It comes in a few different coil voltages, including the 120v that I need. It can be configured as either a delay timer or an interval timer and can be set any where from zero seconds to ten hours. 

I was able to find several on ebay for about $10 each.


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## CaptnJackSparrow (Jul 5, 2007)

'as anyone used/wired relays thru VSA ta trigger yer foggers? I picked up a brand new fogger from Goodwill last week(even 'ad juice in it) fer $12. It 'as a manual remote (no timer) 'ard-wired inta it an' i be wantin' ta wire it thru a relay (maybe SSR) ta trigger th' fogger at spots run by me VSA routines fer me cannons.. run it manual I can, bu' means 'avin ta stand thar an' 'it th' button when it needs "firin'" basically, anyone stripped a fogger remote ta wire it thru a relay yet? Any pitfalls ya found?

Capt. Jack


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## CaptnJackSparrow (Jul 5, 2007)

oh bugger...


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## guitarist155 (Sep 25, 2007)

i have 2 wired that way, they work great you just have to have something to interface the relay with vsa and a relay with contacts rated for 120v, you then just take the remote apart and connect the NO contacts of the relay where the switch is


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## Lynn (Aug 23, 2005)

This is a very interesting thread. I'd like to find out how to hack that fogger to work with VSA .... I have the SSC-32 controller......

But I have always had questions about relays and this helped a lot.

Basic question though...... when looking at a relay they give a voltage.... Thats the voltage needed to make the switch work ? Right ? Does it then matter what type of relay you use for the voltage that is being switched ? That make sense ?

Lets say my device is 110V, I can buy a 12v relay and as long as 12v is applied to the relay, it will switch ON or OFF my 110v device?


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## Phil (Mar 21, 2008)

Relays come in many configurations, but a common automotive relay like the Bosch E5000 can switch a completely different voltage than that needed for triggering. I have used Bosch relays triggered by 12 volts DC to switch 110 volts AC.


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## Lynn (Aug 23, 2005)

So if I am looking on Ebay and it lists a 12V, or 9V ... relay, that is the voltage needed to essentially make it switch. That has nothing to do with the voltage of the device you are trying to turn on or off correct ?


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## The Pod (May 19, 2008)

correct. There should be a rating of what the switching can handle, usually in how much Amps for what voltage (AC or DC) that you'll be switching. I usually buy relays from surplus stores. Picked up about 30 12 volt DC relays last year for .50 cents each.


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## Lynn (Aug 23, 2005)

Thanks ! That clears up some basic questions I had. Sometimes the basic stuff gets overlooked...


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## Kammo (Aug 2, 2008)

Ok Guitarist, I got 6 of these.. I figured for $3 each I might as well get a few.
4PDT 120VAC "ICE-CUBE" RELAY | AllElectronics.com

So Im assuming these are the same as the ones you have shown here and how to hook up?
I am wanting to plug in a fogger to this relay so I should do it just like you have shown in this thread, correct?


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## guitarist155 (Sep 25, 2007)

those look great. potter and brumfield is a really good company. as far what the relay does those are exactly like mine, though no the same ones ( idec ) 
they would be wired the same exact way BUT the pins might be in different places. I can't find the pinout for it so I don't know. the case being clear helps a lot though and it should say which coil pin is positive and negative.


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## BoogieMan (Jun 10, 2009)

yes , but remember ... mechanical relays ( like the ones shown ) are prone to failure due to getting worn out . The higher , or closer to the max amperage rating you get , the faster the contacts wear down . If you have them out in the weather , the contacts can , and usually do , become corroded and also fail . 
Now , SSR - ( aka ) solid state relays ... the only way they fail , is due to misuse - meaning ... if the SSR is rated at say , 2 amps , and you decide to try and make contact with say ... 6 amps , well , needless to say , the triac inside is gonna go POP . 
Now , the reason I posted this , is so folks know that there IS another alternativie to mechanical relays ( like the ones above - that go clickity clack )
Another reason for a SSR would be if you need the contact to be TOTALLY quiet ... with NOT clickity clack noise .


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## guitarist155 (Sep 25, 2007)

I agree with the above post however there are just a few things I want to add. 

a good point on corroding however when using ANY electrical device outside ( relay, sensors, solenoids etc ) unless outdoor rated such as ip66, they should be in an outdoor enclosure. with electronics the optimum humidity is between 45 and 55% too little and you get static, too much and things corrode. so if you are using something in high humidity, you might consider adding a silica gel pack, or a film canister with some DRY rice and some holes, into the enclosure. 

as for solid state vs mechanical relay, here are some points. 

for most of the haunt community the life span of an industrial mechanical relay is plenty. 

if a solid state relay does fail it has a much higher risk of shorting. so if you are using 120vac to pull in the relay and switch dry contact for a prop controller, it might just short 120vac to the relay contacts and fry the controller. this is the primary reason that I use mechanical relays for high voltage switching of low voltage sources. 

expense: solid state relays are GENERALLY more expensive, but for longevity they can pay for this expense in lower overall cost like maintenance, replacement cost and lower down time.

these are the three main reasons for me. however there are a ton of other pros and cons for both I.E current leaking, noise, interference, heat generation etc. so like most other things, the use of one or the other is dependent on your use.


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## Phil (Mar 21, 2008)

great topic and good discussion. I have a bias for the EMR in haunting because they are readily available, cheap and versatile in switching AC or DC. 
SSRs are great, but most of my projects will run one season to be torn down and reconfigured next year, and EMRs always worked well for me.


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## Kammo (Aug 2, 2008)

Same here, I only will be useing these for the 30th and 31st.. I would hope they are durable enough to hold out for 2 days and a couple hours at that.
I cant find anything showing what pins are what though. I dont know which is pos and neg. post 13 & post 14 are the 120v inputs but not sure if there just like yours or not....?
Any help?


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## guitarist155 (Sep 25, 2007)

that sounds exactly like mine as mine are 13 and 14 as well. I believe that relay has the same pattern and is designed as a plug and play replacement.


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## Kammo (Aug 2, 2008)

Ok, then I will start the process of wireing it up to the 120v and fogger... Thanks!


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## haunt on virginia (Feb 5, 2011)

so what are used to remember sequances, is there a way of replicating a picoboo but making it yourself


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## Diabolik (Apr 10, 2006)

haunt on virginia said:


> so what are used to remember sequances, is there a way of replicating a picoboo but making it yourself


If you are looking for a cheaper alternative, you might want to try one of their boards. http://simplecircuitboards.com/HauntedHouse.html 

I have 1 prop running their 1 relay board and I have another that ir running their 3 relay board. I have had them for 3-4 years and both have worked flawlessly for me.  

I also have a PicoBoo which also works great.


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